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Text reads "a podcast about disability with Lisa Cox and Youngcare"

Lisa Cox, an award-winning writer, presenter, and disability advocate, is sitting in a manual wheelchair. She is wearing business clothes: a black suit jacket and pants, and a blue shirt.

Welcome to the “That Was Unexpected” Podcast!

Join our host, Lisa Cox, an award-winning writer, presenter, and advocate, as she delves into the everyday experiences of people living with disabilities. We’ll explore topics like sex and disability, representation, and accessibility in our communities. With expert insights, personal stories, and practical tips, this podcast is a must-listen for anyone seeking to understand, support, and celebrate disability and inclusion.

Get ready to challenge your perspectives on disability and embark on a transformative journey. From fostering understanding to promoting inclusion, “That Was Unexpected” invites you to join the movement toward a more diverse and inclusive world. Don’t miss out on this insightful and engaging exploration of disability in our society.

Welcome to the “That Was Unexpected” Podcast!

Join our host, Lisa Cox, an award-winning writer, presenter, and advocate, as she delves into the everyday experiences of people living with disabilities. We’ll explore topics like sex and disability, representation, and accessibility in our communities. With expert insights, personal stories, and practical tips, this podcast is a must-listen for anyone seeking to understand, support, and celebrate disability and inclusion.

Get ready to challenge your perspectives on disability and embark on a transformative journey. From fostering understanding to promoting inclusion, “That Was Unexpected” invites you to join the movement toward a more diverse and inclusive world. Don’t miss out on this insightful and engaging exploration of disability in our society.

Headshot of Lisa Cox, an award-winning writer, presenter, and disability advocate. Lisa is wearing a red top, and black suit jacket. She's sitting in front of a podcast microphone, and is wearing recording headphones. She also has a takeaway coffee cup in her left hand.

Meet Your Host, Lisa Cox!

Why is Lisa Cox the perfect host for this podcast? Lisa Cox is an esteemed disability advocate, author, and media professional dedicated to improving disability representation in mainstream culture. She has garnered international recognition and awards for her impactful work, collaborating with various organisations and individuals who share her vision. Lisa’s contributions have been featured in prestigious publications worldwide, and she currently serves as a Disability Affairs Officer at Media Diversity Australia.

Make sure to follow Lisa on her social media and check out her website:

Meet Your Host, Lisa Cox!

Why is Lisa Cox the perfect host for this podcast? Lisa Cox is an esteemed disability advocate, author, and media professional dedicated to improving disability representation in mainstream culture. She has garnered international recognition and awards for her impactful work, collaborating with various organizations and individuals who share her vision. Lisa’s contributions have been featured in prestigious publications worldwide, and she currently serves as a Disability Affairs Officer at Media Diversity Australia.

Make sure to follow Lisa on her social media and check our her website:

Episode 1: Intro About Youngcare and Lisa Cox

In the introductory episode of ‘That was Unexpected’ Lisa speaks to David Conry; Founder of not-for-profit Youngcare, and Greg Johnson; CEO of Youngcare. We will hear about the formation of the NFP that has changed the gap in care provision for young people with disabilities, and the future of its important work.

View Transcript

LISA: Are you sick of the same old disability stereotypes? We were too so We did something about it. Welcome to ‘That was Unexpected’, the Disability Lifestyle Podcast for everyone. Brought to you by Youngcare and hosted by me, Lisa Cox.

Join our amazing guests as we delve into topics that don’t often hit the headlines. So let’s do this! Prepare for the unexpected. If you’re low vision like me or have other accessibility requirements, check out our shownotes.

Before we get started, we’d like to acknowledge the traditional owners of land on which we record. We pay our respects to the elders past, present and emerging.

NARRATOR: Welcome to episode one of “That Was Unexpected”. That Was Unexpected is a podcast that will challenge your perceptions around disability.

Each month, our host, Lisa Cox, will be speaking with advocates, experts and friends about the experiences of people living with disabilities, with the purpose of normalising disability and celebrating inclusion.

Why do we think Lisa is the perfect host for this podcast? Well, apart from being a writer, TEDx speaker and internationally awarded thought leader, Lisa is a very proud member of the disability community. She acquired multiple visible and invisible disabilities nearly years ago. And while she couldn’t change what had happened to her, Lisa could and is using her voice to help change social attitudes towards disability.

As a Youngcare Ambassador Lisa wanted to learn more about the origin of the organisation that is leading the way in creating an inclusive Australia. Youngcare was born out of a significant need, but really its success has been due to the power of community and friendship.

In 2005, four mates vowed to change the gap in care provision for young people with high care needs when at the age of 33, the late Shevaune Conry, who had multiple sclerosis, ended up living in aged care. It was the only place that could provide for her care needs. So husband at the time, Dave rallied his mates and they created Youngcare with the purpose of creating age appropriate homes for young people with disabilities.

Dave and Lisa had a chat in the studio and here’s what they had to say.

DAVE: It was new to me, the whole disability space, but it was through my first wife, Shevaune, who unfortunately through her MS, became quite debilitated. And over time we sort of learned to deal with disabilities as they came.

It was a it was a process that sort of came on slowly and then more quickly and then more debilitating as we went on. So that learning disability was on the run for us and subsequently became quite a terrifying experience really, given what we didn’t know. And what subsequently became apparent was her future.

So that was really the driver behind Youngcare in the end and subsequently her disabilities and in her illness more so meant that she needed care outside the home. She wasn’t available, and the concept of Youngcare came about.

LISA: That really, really is fantastic, what you’ve achieved. When you first told your mates about what was happening to Shevaune, what was their reaction? What did they do and say?

DAVE: They saw it as I saw it. You know, they were great friends with her and could see what the illness was doing to her. So it wasn’t news to them really. But I guess the challenges that she shared privately, you know, became apparent to them. And they were saddened, as I was by Shevaune’s situation.

But also, you know, I think all of us, our friends and our family were quite motivated by the bravery that she showed in a very stoic nature she had and in dealing with a very challenging situation. And but yeah, they they could see what we all saw. And that was a very challenging situation for her, particularly and subsequently for all of us.

LISA: And I suppose everybody has such a different situation when they acquire a disability particularly and tell people about their disability or a chronic illness. And I had a different situation and lots of people I’ve spoken to do.

What would be your advice for people who do either acquire a a chronic illness or a disability in terms of supporting people?

DAVE: Look, I don’t know. Everyone’s circumstances are different, but we were I guess on reflection, we were very fortunate to have a great support network of family and friends.

And and I guess if whatever I can give is to, you know, really share your situation with them, what you’re going through, what help you need. I think that’s such a great way to alleviate some of the stresses and need to really sort of collectively sort of support the person who needs support and whether it’s in particular on the emotional side of it, it’s very important to share your situation with family and friends and rather than sort of bottle up, which probably I did a lot of the time. But but eventually, you know, you feel the need to sort of share and that’s such a great relief when you’ve got that support there because they all want to help.

LISA: Yeah, I think sharing is probably really important from my point of view as well. My involvement with Youngcare came from a now famous Minutes story that aired over ten years ago, and that’s where Youngcare really got known. Suddenly people found out about Youngcare because previously not a lot of people knew that this problem, quote on quote existed and myself included.

And I had been previously over a year in hospital. And because of the nature of my my injuries, my disabilities, I spent so much time in, I suppose, with people old enough to be my grandparents that included stroke and hip replacement and things like that. And they were lovely, lovely people but we had nothing in common. And so talking to them about war stories and their grandchildren, I was just like, yeah, no, sorry.

I came out of hospital and was watching Minutes one night and was just glued to the screen and watching this story with tears rolling down my face and remember watching it thinking, holy shit!

How grateful firstly to have got out of hospital and have sort of been getting on with my life. But secondly, how terrible is it that there’s still thousands and thousands of young people in all people’s homes who couldn’t get away from the situation that I was once in.

So at the time I had no job. I was fortunate enough to be back home with mum and dad, but I didn’t have any money because I had no job, but I did have my writing skills. So I couldn’t donate a lot of money to Youngcare so I donated my time. I volunteered my time. I went to the office and said, “right, here I am, what can I do?” And that’s what I started doing. I just volunteered my time as a writer. And that’s that’s how I started working with Youngcare and become involved with the organisation. And it’s been a long, long journey with Youngcare.

And that’s really how I got involved with this organisation all those years ago and how I came to know the founders and yourself and why I’m so incredibly grateful that you guys did the work that you did all those years ago and is still doing the work that you are doing today. Because I just think it’s magnificent.

There are so many young people in aged care who shouldn’t be there and if I was in an aged care facility, it bloody sucks to be surrounded by lovely old people, but they don’t know what it’s like. It’s absolutely horrific.

The stats that are out there for young people who are going into aged care and don’t have an alternative. So thank you from the bottom of my heart for everything that you and the guys, the founders did back in the day, back at Sinnamon Park when I was there. I remember the opening and just being so, so grateful.

So thank you again and thank you so much for being on the very first episode of our podcast.

DAVE: No problems at all. And, and I appreciate your kind words. And look, it’s, it’s a long time ago now and yeah, what we did, we couldn’t have done without the support of so many.

I think that’s the important thing is that the organisation has gone on and and it was designed to sort of go on really. once we realized there was a big need and to do that, you really need the support of so many whether it’s, you know, in the community, whether it’s the business community, whether it’s media, government, you know, everyone’s part of that community.

And I think, you know, to to solve a big problem, you need, you know, everyone to sort of provide or to play a part. And I think that’s what Youngcare has really done, is to provide a vehicle for people to be involved in and to play their part in the solution. And that solution doesn’t happen overnight and can’t happen overnight. But it really is setting the standards for what a solution can look like. And I think that’s what we’re most proud of – is starting an organisation that others have taken on to really be there for people who need it.

LISA: It’s a really great community you guys have got here. And I encourage everyone to jump on the website and have a look at what Youngcare are doing because it is a fantastic community for young Australians and other people who do want that support in the home or other places.

So, thanks again, David.

DAVE: My pleasure.

NARRATOR: Fast forward years and Youngcare is still paving the way in creating inclusive communities. The organization builds age appropriate, quality homes for people with disabilities, provides grants for vital equipment and life changing home modifications, or to transition people with disabilities out of institutions and back into the community where they belong. And the Youngcare Connect team provide free information and advice to families navigating the very complicated disability sector.

Lisa had a wonderful conversation with the CEO, Greg Johnson, and here’s what they chatted about.

GREG: Yeah, I guess for a long time we’ve really focused on getting young people out of aged care into Youngcare homes or helping them stay in their own homes. I think more and more these days we’ve got to get these young people out, out into communities, out into bars, galleries, theaters, restaurants, sporting venues, whatever.

There’s been such an investment made to create wonderful homes. But that’s just the first part. You know, to give people choice, dignity and control, they should have also the ability to get out. And that brings a whole raft of issues with it. But it’s really important that we don’t just want people just staying inside these beautiful homes. We want them out in their communities and meeting people and doing things that we all take for granted.

LISA: Love that. Absolutely love that. There’s stereotypes that we all we all sit at home in our pyjamas and don’t leave the house. But no, we love we love going to concerts and all those other things. All the things that non-disabled people do as well.

So what sort of things are Youngcare residents and other people… What sort of things do you try and get people out to do?

GREG: Yeah, well, a recent example is this might sound odd, but we were on the sponsors of the BIGSOUND Music Conference here in Queensland, which is the biggest music conference in the southern hemisphere. That’s a classic where we’ve had some of our residents and grant recipients attend music concerts. Now, easier said than done sometimes, but you know, when we have those tickets available, they flock to them. It’s wonderful.

The other big one, I guess, is even just sports events or sometimes just shopping. Yeah, we work really hard with a range of people. We’re just getting people at these communities so they can go shopping or whatever it might be. So yeah, BIGSOUND was a great one. We had some wonderful residents turn up and enjoy wonderful music concerts in Brisbane.

LISA: As a CEO, as a leader, I think it’s really, really awesome. I’m I was banging on about this. As leaders, you need to step up I suppose, for things like accessibility, when the other people, when other people out and you get those sorts of things.

So what advice would you offer to whether it’s a venue organiser or a HR manager or somebody like that for how they can be accessible or things like that?

GREG: Yeah, that’s a really good point, Lisa. I think for us it’s from listening to those with lived experience. Once you have that and people can tell you the challenges they face on a day to day basis, then we can be the voice for them and quite literally the voice for them. So, so for venue operators and employers, listen to that lived experience first, whether it’s inside your own organisation or if you don’t have people with disability in the organisation, come talk to us or other providers and get that lived experience advice first. And we’re doing that now, some organisations, but a long way to go. But I think don’t assume.

We were at a venue last week where they provided the access for people to get in, but when people would go to the bar to order a drink, of course if they’re in a chair, they can’t see above the bar. Yeah. So it’s it’s not just getting into the venue as an example. It’s a raft of other issues. It’s not just having accessible bathrooms. It’s, you know, it’s where are the bathrooms? And there’s a million things.

My only advice would be, listen to lived experience first and never make any assumptions and then retest constantly all the way. Because you continue to find out small things that can be done better.

LISA: Such good advice, lived experience first and if you can’t get lived experience get in a consultant. Get in that that lived experience. And it’s not just lived experience from one one person. One person can’t speak for everybody.

GREG: Exactly.

LISA: Myself or, you know, one disabled person doesn’t speak for the entire community. That’s really, really solid advice. So, Greg, can you give us an idea of how many young people are in aged care at the moment?

GREG: Yeah, the number is coming down, Lisa. Only a few years ago it was in the thousands. It’s it’s much less than that now. It’s just under . But that’s the iceberg thing. It’s the iceberg principle.

We can see those two or three thousand young people, we know where they are, so to speak. But what we have no idea of in Australia is how many young people with severe disabilities are living at home today with their aging parents. Now, these are aging parents. These might be 60,  70, 80 year olds in homes that aren’t equipped that I have hoists, they don’t have hydro, they don’t have ramps, they don’t have rails. So that is a big problem.

Just on a quantum list, I would suggest, is well over 20,000, of these in Australia today, and that’s inappropriate accommodation as well. The parents still love them, but it’s inappropriate accommodation. It can’t service their needs. These are the young folk that rarely get out. These mum and dads don’t have a car to do so or don’t have ramps to allow it. So that’s the big thing that I’m really worried about.

And I do mean that, you know, the problem that Youngcare was built to solve: young people living in aged care. Gradually, we’re getting through that. But behind it there’s is second wave and it’s many, many more thousands.

And I had a chat with a fellow just a while ago that his words were, “I’m just a broken hip away from me living, in aged care with my daughter. And that’s a true story from the Gold Coast. And that rocked me because I thought, wow, this is this is a classic example of a Dad wanting to do the right thing, but his home isn’t inappropriate for her needs as he gets older. So, yeah, that’s the big one for me. And we’ll try and solve it as best we can. We’ll get the sector. I mean, not Youngcare. But it’s a big issue.

LISA Yeah, I’m aware of people in the sector. I have friends. Well you know, I won’t name who I know of. And it’s yeah, definitely a tidal wave. And when it hits, it’s not going to be pretty. So I, I know there’s a lot of work to be done before that.

GREG: Yeah. And it’s, a double whammy, Lisa. I mean let’s say the worst comes the worse and the parents, slash carer goes to aged care. You know, you could then have this young person that may well go with them.

Yeah. And that’s the stuff that we’ve got to get our mind around and start educating and encouraging these aging parents to allow their child to move to separate accommodation. Because some of their parents, particularly culturally, we know examples of particular part of Sydney where culturally if you have a disabled child you must look after them. And great intent with it, but when the parents turn and  , it won’t end well.

LISA: Yeah. That that’s the thing I suppose. When there’s the intersections with whether it’s cultural or for some for some other reason, when the intent is there as well, it puts a whole new layer of complexity around different things.

GREG: Yeah, absolutely. Okay, Lisa, I’ve got a question for you. So some time ago, Youngcare was looking at its ambassadors and we had a glaring hole in that we didn’t have an ambassador with lived experience and we tracked you down and we thought you would be a perfect fit for Youngcare for a raft of reasons. But why, why was it important for you to accept that ambassador role for Youngcare?

LISA: I have loved Youngcare, and I do for a long, long time. Well before your days. And I suppose I got involved with Youngcare back when it first began.

Back when the very first Sinnamon Park residence opened. I was there when it launched and when it was opening, all the dignitaries, all the very, very important politicians and the founders are all up there on stage and saying their thing. And I remember looking at all the people on stage and saying there were no people there with disabilities. This is wrong. There should be people there with disabilities, there’s no one there with lived experience.

And so, me foolishly, and I was completely sober, mind you! I wheeled around the back and past all the techies over the cords and grabbed a microphone and jumped on stage and said, “Everybody, I want to tell you how important Youngcare is”, and just burst into tears. And it was one of those ugly crying moments like Gwyneth Paltrow had at the Oscars or something.

And that was back then. And that’s going back over ten years ago. And I suppose even back then, it was really, really important to me that people with lived experiences had a voice at all of these sorts of events. And that’s still today. I continued on.

Yeah, I’ve always loved the sort of work that that Youngcare has done. Having getting young people out of aged care, because I’ve had had my own experiences in not aged care, but being in a situation where I was surrounded by people who were old enough to be my grandparents and they were lovely, but we had nothing in common.

GREG: Well, we’re so glad that you chose to be an ambassador and giving us the insights from your lived experience perspective. Also hosting today, supporting us at events. We’re blessed to have you. We really appreciate you at Youngcare.

LISA Well, thanks very much for being on the podcast today, Greg. It’s been fantastic speaking with you and thank you again for all of the fantastic work that you’re doing here at Youngcare.

GREG: Thank you, Lisa, and thank you for hosting us. Very excited to have you on board and much appreciated. Thank you.

LISA: Thanks for listening to “That Was Unexpected”. If you liked what you heard and you want to hear more, then hit subscribe wherever you get your fix.

Have any questions or topics that you’d love for us to tackle? Great! Email [email protected] We can’t wait to hear from you.

Check out our show notes for transcripts, video recordings and to find out more about our guests plus the useful resources they share. You can reach us on Facebook, Instagram, X and LinkedIn at @youngcareoz.

Let’s not forget an inclusive community is everyone’s business, so let’s keep working together to break down barriers and smash some stereotypes!

Episode 2: People with Disabilities have Sex!? (Pt 1)

What!? People with disabilities have sex?? – YES, of course! Then why is positive sexual health for people with disabilities a taboo topic? Lisa, Dr Marita Heck and Todd Winther explore all the juicy details about sex and intimacy for people with disabilities.

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NARRATOR: In today’s episode, Lisa and our wonderful guests we’ll be talking about sex, intimacy and disability. Please note mature themes apply.

This episode is in two parts, so be sure to look out for ‘Part 2’ to get the full scoop on this fascinating topic.

LISA: Are you sick of the same old disability stereotypes? We were too so we did something about it. Welcome to ‘That Was Unexpected’ the disability lifestyle podcast for everyone.

Brought to you by Youngcare and hosted by me, Lisa Cox. Join our amazing guests as we delve into topics that don’t often hit the headlines. So, let’s do this!

Prepare for the unexpected! If you’re low vision like me or have other accessibility requirements, check out our show notes.

Before we get started, we’d like to acknowledge the traditional owners of land on which we record. We pay respects to the elders, past, present and emerging.

LISA: Hey! Hello everybody. Okay, I was super excited when the producers came to me with this topic because sex and disability is something that kind of well, it goes together like oil and water.

You don’t really hear much about it. It’s really not discussed. And when you do, unfortunately… and I don’t want to make fun of this, but it’s it’s…yeah, kind of not not really put together in a in a nice kind of way.

So I’m really excited to have two extremely, extremely experienced guests in their own individual ways on the podcast this morning. Todd And Dr. Marita if you could introduce yourselves please.

TODD: Hi, everyone. I’m Todd Winther. I’m a political consultant for Disability Services Consulting. But previously I was lucky enough to work for Youngcare and to live in Youngcare’s first building at Sinnamon Park and Youngcare is a really important place in my heart because they are the organisation that gave me my freedom. So I’m delighted to be with you today. Thank you Lisa.

LISA: Thanks very much Todd and Dr. Marita Heck, the beautiful Marita who is dressed in blue. Listeners can’t see her but she’s- she’s dress up for our podcast, which is just fantastic. Tell us a bit about yourself Dr. Marita.

MARITA: Hi, Lisa. Thank you for having me and for inviting me to the podcast together with Todd. I am actually a nurse, and I am a midwife, and I’m also working as a researcher in the sexual quality of life and disability space, and also as a clinician.

LISA: Excellent. Now… like I said before, sex and disability, don’t hear a lot about it. Todd why do you think that the two just don’t get a lot of air time? Why do you think we we just don’t hear about sex and disability unless it’s kind of, not… I don’t know-

TODD: So many reasons I could probably write an academic thesis on it.

LISA: Yeah I think you could too.

TODD: Basically there’s a stereotype in society that people with disabilities particularly people with physical disabilities like I have, I have cerebral palsy spastic quadriplegia and there’s an assumption that people with disabilities are asexual and that we don’t want to develop relationships of any kind.

But all humans require some sort of connection. and that’s what makes us human. And because people with disabilities are classified by a stereotype as subhuman or othered there’s a perception that people with disabilities don’t need that connection, or thrive on that connection, because we’re not human after all we are defined by our disability under the medical model.

We are defined by our impairments. We’re not defined by what we can contribute to the people we love or society at large, whether that being in an intimate context or not.

LISA: Yep, excellent answer. I couldn’t agree more. And speaking of writing PhD, or a thesis, or something. I believe Dr. Marita has done exactly that. Written a PhD about sexuality and disability.

MARITA: It was a part of it. So my PhD is actually divided into how society perceives disability and how this is actually fed back into media, and then one other topic is how a society perceives disability and sexuality, and how this is fed back to media. And then, you know, people; how we educate the broader community about that as well.

And Todd said it really well because what we also found out in research is actually one of the reasons why this is still a bit of a difficult topic is because people with a disability have been tucked away or we’re tucked away until, you know, until we had the medical advances to actually support people with a disability, to live a normal life.

You know, and that’s basically where we are just at the moment in the catch up, you know, what you actually say “Okay people with a disability are normal people who have normal, you know, normal friends, have normal relationships, have sex as well.” So it’s just I think society needs to catch up with that idea that.

LISA: Whaaat? People with disabilities have sex as well? No! That, honestly that… seems to blow some people’s tiny minds. But it is a real shame that that it is.

I know Todd, you do really interesting work in this space. Tell us about some of the work that you do. I’ve read your website. Tell us about some of the workshops that you do with people to educate them about sex, and sexuality, and all of those things.

TODD: Well, part of the work that I do at BSE is I run a workshop for service providers, because I co-run the workshop with an OT and a sexologist but also somebody who use to work for a service provider who also works at DSC. And what we try to do is we don’t necessarily talk about the ‘sexy part’ You know…Do we need to… Can we hire a sex worker under the NDIS? or, you know, how do we position a person with a disability?

It’s more about teaching people with disabilities protective behaviours, helping them ask the right questions, putting them in the right frame of mind so they can develop relationships of any kind because the opposite of relationships of any nature is isolation and the history of the disability movement up until right now is basically people with disabilities have been deliberately isolated, deliberately segregated. So it’s taken for granted that people with disabilities, as I said before, actually want relationships.

And because is the social model of disability says that disability is a lack of choice, that too extends to sexuality and disability. How do I explore my body when the b- when my body is the very thing that works against me? How do I have a safe and meaningful conversation for a provider that I trust? How can that provided develop trust in me? What conversations need to be had if the person with a disability is in a vulnerable situation and at the other end, what kind of touch do I like? What kind of touch don’t I like?

If you use a personal support worker, the touch that you get is very clinical. So how do I differentiate as a service provider, how I explain what is clinical touch and what is intimate touch. So there are different things like that. And because on the policy nerd, I get to explain all the all the guidelines and all the frameworks within the NDIS and then the sexologist OT that we co-present with gets to present all the exciting and interesting stuff.

LISA: That’s such important work that you’re doing Todd. Such important work, and I think you’ve worked with some OT’s before as well, doing some interesting work as well because this, this idea that people with disabilities have- are asexual like Todd said or have no sexual desires and zero interest in sex is all a load of B.S. Tell us a little bit about the work that you’ve done with OT’s and sex-sexologists, excuse my language.

MARITA: One of the works I’m doing in my clinical work is I work with people who have physical disabilities and want to self pleasure. And I have several clients with cerebral palsy as well. And then we look into how can they actually self pleasure.

And then we develop with an OT together devices that actually have, you know, clamp vibrators on top of it or male masturbation devices for males. And it’s a very interesting job because you basically have always to think outside the box. And that’s what I love about it. It’s just, you know, the challenge And then it’s also finding the right people because sometimes it can be very hard to find people who are open to work in this space.

And so just to, you know, find somebody who says, “Hey, no problem, give me that vibrator.” “lets see what can do with it.” And, you know, and then also, my clients are very, very grateful for that support as well.

LISA: Hey, who wouldn’t be grateful for a device like that. Everyone deserves an orgasm I say! I just think it’s important to talk about those sorts of things because hey if you didn’t- If you and I hadn’t had that conversation over coffee one day, I wouldn’t have known that those sorts of things were available for people with with those sorts of limb differences and things like that.

And there’s probably a lot of people in the community whether or not they have disabilities that know those sorts of services out there. And one of the objectives of this podcast is to broaden awareness, understanding of disabilities, whether or not you have one. And so I wanted to I wanted to have a chat about that and I know that when you had a conversation that day, you mentioned that you work with a lot of people who have acquired a disability and sometimes one of the barriers to learning about their sex and sexuality is the health care worker. And sometimes they don’t want to have that conversation. And could you explain a bit more about that, please?

MARITA: So yeah, I’m actually- my specialised field is people I work with people who sustained a spinal cord injury. This is just my interest field and I work with other with people with other disabilities as well. It’s just a field I’m researching in as well. And so we see often in the clinical and research space that health care workers feel just challenged to talk about that topic.

And unfortunately that is really damaging for the people who sustained the spinal cord injury or who have a disability in general. Because what I see often is that they are getting told “Forget about it.” “If you don’t use it, you lose it.” And it’s super damaging because sexual quality of life is a very basic human need we have. And often- and we know from research that actually from a recovery point of view, a person who sustained the spinal cord injury recovers much better if they know that point, you know that life domain is actually covered and they can come any time to a specialist to actually talk about it.

It’s just, you know, having that information, “Hey there is information out there.” There are health professionals out there. They can help you. And then basically to give that autonomy to that person themselves, then to reach out to these people and just, you know, give the basic information, or even what I actually go into universities and teach that as well in nursing and midwifery degrees. And what I usually say is “It’s okay if you can’t talk about it. It’s a personal decision.” However, I would like to invite you to actually say, “Okay, I it’s not my thing, but I do know somebody who is, you know, happy to talk about is who is specialised in this.” And then, you know, it’s just really to guide the patient or client in to that direction where they actually get the help and not, you know, just saying “Forget about it”. That’s just very disappointing. And yeah.

LISA: Yeah, absolutely. I think if there are any healthcare providers listening, if you don’t want to talk about it, that’s fine. But please find someone who can. Absolutely, pass them onto to someone who can recommend a colleague or something.

Now Todd, I believe- I do want to probe you a few questions. I know some people with disabilities don’t like a lot of questions, but I’m going to probe a few questions because one of the questions I get all the time as someone with a disability is, “Are you married?”

TODD: Yes.

LISA: Then when I say I am, you are? Yes.

TODD: Yes! “Oh did you meet your husband before or after your disabilities?” And then when I tell them I met my husband after the look of shock in their face is just… Just. Oh my God. The idea that someone married me with disabilities… “Wow. Good for you!” Oh my God!

TODD: It’s almost like your husband should apply for sainthood, isn’t it?

LISA: I know! What a good man.

TODD: Oh, yes.

LISA: Far out!

TODD: Tremendous, yeah.

LISA: Our producers just going to kill me here F—

TODD: Yeah!

LISA: You can bleep that out. So tell me your story Todd. Tell me all about your lovely wife and your marriage.

TODD: We’ve been married for five years together for eight. And because I got my disability from birth, yes, we met after I became disabled. [Laughing]

TODD: We met online and as a person with a physical disability who goes around in life with a neon sign literally above his head and says, “Hey everyone I’m disabled.”

Online dating was the first opportunity that I actually had. The first power of choice that I actually had of deciding when and how to disclose my disability. So I very readily chose online dating so I could have that authority in power to say, let’s have a conversation first, let’s try and figure out if you can actually get this, because not only did you have to work out, yes, I wanted to date this person, you also had to figure out that there was a second barrier.

And the second barrier was, yes, they might want to date you, but are they going to be cool with the challenges that I confront on a daily basis? You and I Lisa, are absolutely Ok most of the time with dealing with ableist behaviour and ableist language, but I can assure you that every time I go out in public with my wife, she gets far more upset on my behalf than I do, because, as you say, people have got skin in the game and the people that love us naturally care about us the most It’s when we talk about sexuality and intimacy

There’s two assumptions at play with my wife. There’s an assumption that she’s my family member, whether that be my sister or my cousin. And even shockingly, because she’s two years younger than me, she sometimes being referred to as my mother… and I tease her mercilessly about that. But there’s an assumption that she’s a family member or that she’s a support worker.

So what does that tell me as a person with a disability? I’m either paying her to be with me or she’s obliged to be with me as a family member. That tells me as a person with a disability that I’m not worthy of giving or receiving the love. So, if we extend that out to the entire disability community and we lionise our able bodied partners, yes, they’re fantastic partners and they support us because otherwise we wouldn’t be with them.

But they’re no saints for loving us. They love us because we are human. We share a connection. They don’t love us because we’re disabled and they’re actually people that have specific fetishes and if there was an X rated podcast, I’m sure you and I could share some very unique stories.

LISA: I think we could.

TODD: But the point is, again it relies upon human connection, it’s no different to say Marita who is not physically disabled, wants and needs emotional connection as well. It’s a human need and just because we have visible disabilities, it doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t be able to access it. And I’ll get off my wheelchair accessible soap box.

LISA: Oh no, please stay on it. I love everything you’re saying and I couldn’t agree more. Extremely well said Todd.

MARITA: Todd I have a question, if you don’t mind.

TODD: Sure.

MARITA: That’s a question many of my male clients who sustained a spinal cord injury actually asking me. It’s not so much the females who have that problem. It’s more the males where they say when they actually go on online dating and either that disclosed that they are wheelchair user at the beginning, then they don’t get matches, and if they then, you know, don’t disclose it and then say it later into the conversation and then these people get upset as well. And so for me, a question would be how would you recommend them to actually approach this?

TODD: Well, it’s different for everybody, but if you choose to disclose it later and they get upset, then they’re obviously not the right person for you because they’re going to get upset based on the disability anyway.

Whether you disclose that at the start or not. What I used to do is, you know, have a few vague, cheeky references to the disability to start with. So, “This guy’s a little bit different.” And if they’re curious, that’s sort of like a trigger to say, oh they’re inquisitive enough to ask questions and therefore they can meet me halfway on a relational or an intellectual level and then that starts the conversation that way.

So you’re not necessarily lying to them. You lead them down a pathway, the end point of which is, yes I’m disabled and we can have a conversation about this.

MARITA: Thank you so much that that’s really lovely to know because that’s one of the biggest hurdles I see in the work I’m actually doing.

LISA: Yeah.

MARITA: I also would like to add something with the healthcare workers in the research we are actually doing, my beautiful OT students, we actually developed a website It’s www.sexpositivecommunity.com and in this website we actually have a lot of information for people with a disability.

But also for health care workers because we know that it’s a big hurdle and where we actually just give an insight into a conversation how a conversation can go and where to find support. And this is just something we help, you know, the broader community people with lived experience, their carers, their families, and also health care professionals to actually start that conversation and just, you know, exchange their you know, thoughts and, you know, be very mindful as well when talking about that.

LISA: Ok, we’ll make sure we put that that link in the show notes as well. And Todd, are you aware of any what’s the word dating sites specifically for people with disability, or…

TODD: Yes, but there’s always a danger though and I’ve got to tread very carefully here that it can be exploited either for financial gain,

LISA: Okay.

TODD: or there are devotees who-

LISA: Ah, yep.

TODD: seek very specific interest, that can be safe but are not always guaranteed to be safe. So yes, there are particular websites with disability around dating. I actually am a bit of a hypocrite. ‘cause when I was dating I made the decision not to date people with physical disabilities and when I told other people with physical disabilities I was met with some, you know, incredulous looks saying, “Well, aren’t you a bit of a hypocrite?” Because if a girl came up to you and said, “I’m not going to date you because you are in a wheelchair, wouldn’t you feel upset? But I just explain basically that I’ve got enough physical challenges to deal with.

I want to have intimate relationships. Part of that involves physical connection. And if the two of us can’t connect physically, that’s a really important part of my relationship it’s part of my values. So if we couldn’t connect physically, that was sort of a no go area.

LISA: Yeah, that’s totally fair enough. Everyone’s got their own their own thing and there shouldn’t be… any judgment at all around what every individual decides.

TODD: ‘Physical connection’. I’m not using code words for ‘sex’. I’m using language that specifically talks about hugging, even touching, because every day I had people touching me on my body, whether it’s giving a shower or dressing me, or wiping my bottom when I go to the toilet.

So it’s really, really important to me that I had very specific touch that activates different parts of my body and that says to me, oh these people care about me. These people are more than a transactional relationship, whether that be a support worker, versus a client. I’m actually getting a connection to say this person loves me.

MARITA/LISA: Yeah. LISA: Absolutely, I think that’s really important for for people with disabilities who do rely on that, that transactional care, as you call it, to have another type of care that’s something very different… [No dialogue]

NARRATOR: Alright folks, as promised, that was ‘Part 1’ of our chat about all things sex, intimacy and disability. You can catch Lisa, Marita, and Todd continuing this awesome conversation in ‘Part 2’. Thanks for listening to ‘That Was Unexpected’.

If you liked what you heard and you want to hear more, then hit subscribe wherever you get your fix. Have any questions or topics that you’d love for us to tackle? Great! Email [email protected] We can’t wait to hear from you!

Check out our show notes for transcripts, video recordings and to find out more about our guests, plus the useful resources by share.

You can reach us on Facebook, Instagram, X, and LinkedIn at ‘@YoungcareOz’

Let’s not forget, an inclusive community is everyone’s business, so let’s keep working together to break down barriers, and smash some stereotypes.

Episode 3: People with Disabilities have Sex!? (Pt 2)

If you listened to Part 1 of this episode you will know that people will disabilities do indeed have sex *gasp*! In Part 2, Lisa continues her chat with Dr Marita and Todd about all things sex, intimacy, and disability.

View Transcript

NARRATOR: In today’s episode, Lisa and our wonderful guests will be talking about sex, intimacy and disability. Please note mature themes apply.

This episode is in two parts. So if you haven’t already, make sure you listen to part one before you jump into part two.

LISA: Are you sick of the same old disability stereotypes? We were too! So we did something about it. Welcome to ‘That Was Unexpected’. The disability lifestyle podcast for everyone.

Brought to you by Youngcare and hosted by me, Lisa Cox. Join our amazing guests as we delve into topics that don’t often hit the headlines. So let’s do this! Prepare for the unexpected.

If you’re low vision like me or have other accessibility requirements, check out our show notes.

Before we get started, we’d like to acknowledge the traditional owners of land on which we record. We pay our respects to the elders past, present and emerging.

NARRATOR: Welcome back to part two of ‘What!? People With Disabilities Have Sex?’. Once again, Lisa was joined in the studio by Todd Winther, self-proclaimed policy nerd, sex and wellbeing subject specialist, and disability advocate, and Dr. Marita Heck, nurse, midwife, researcher and clinician specialising in today’s topic.

Lisa and our guests were just filling us in on accessing NDIS funding for sexual wellbeing. Ready to dive back in?

LISA: Now, something that I know you both have a lot of experience with is NDIS funding. That is for sexual… What are the words I’m looking for? I wanna get the words right here.

TODD: Functional capacity is the major buzz word for NDIS.

LISA: Okay. Right. Either of you please, please go for it. If, if I or somebody did need help in that area, how would I go about funding? What area of my funding do I use?

TODD: The first thing to say is there’s no specific area that says either positive or negatively you can use this bucket of funding specifically for intimate or sexual preference.

One of the key challenges that we’ve had is if politicians want to point score, they can say “Oh people can use their NDIS for sex therapy”, which by the way, is totally valid. But what… What section five of the NDIS actually says is that people have autonomy over their body. They have the right to privacy and the reasonable, and necessary criteria of section thirty-four of the NDIS Act says that in order to get funding, you can prove that it is effective and beneficial both clinically, but also to achieve your goals in life.

And any NDIS goal that says things like developing relationships, social connection, further independence, things like that can be justified within the intimacy circle and can be not easily argued to get NDIS funding, but if you use the correct language and if you use the right resources, you can definitely get things like what Marita is working on. You can easily, clinically and otherwise justify those intimate supports.

And if we look beyond the NDIS there’s actually an international treaty where Australia is a signatory called the United Nations Convention on the Rights of People with Disabilities that actually says in black and white and gray you can have intimate relationships.

You have the right to privacy, you can participate in social and cultural and public life. So even if the NDIS didn’t have it covered in their legislation, you could actually say that the Australian Government is violating an international treaty. And if you were to say to a government official that of course not, then take us to the International Court of Law.

So even if in their infinite wisdom a politician was and say, “No, you can’t do this.” Well, actually, there’s a there’s a piece of legislation that’s above you the most internationally respected organisation in human rights, the United Nations, actually says that you can.

LISA: So Marita do you help any of your clients access NDIS funding for services?

MARITA: Yeah so, what I can recommend is to, and just to add to what Todd just said is if people with a disability have that actually in my plan that they actually want to experience sexual quality of life, then the NDIS actually funds health professionals like me who then come and do a formal assessment and look into their sexual quality of life goals, how they want to reach it, and then support like I do with that hand-brace I showed you, is then actually NDIS funded because I basically do that as a recommendation.

So I also go and say recommendation is for this person to in spinal cord injury for males to ejaculate or to, you know, have erectile, they usually have erectile dysfunctions is to actually have support with that. And with females serve pleasure or pleasure support or sexual quality of life with their partners, and we usually then can just justify that. And then NDIS usually does actually fund it.

So I haven’t had much problems with that with my clients. The only problems I encountered with was with sex workers. They wouldn’t fund that.

LISA: Right, so Todd tell us again about your dating experience and finding your wife.

TODD: Well, it took a while. I mean that whole online dating process took about six years before actually found my wife. I had been on a few dates, probably about, you know, five? And one particular woman I got fairly serious with. But It always encountered the same boundary, like I thought I was okay.

And then something happened and it made me rethink whether I was actually okay with it. And then basically I thought I was going to be on dating websites for like – years because finding somebody that connects with you on a level and then finding somebody who actually understands your disability is like finding a needle in a haystack.

But also to get to that extra level to actually connect with somebody and share the same values that you do and can actually tolerate my obsessive love of AFL football and my obsessive need to understand electoral boundaries and stuff like that. That’s the thing that makes Todd.

Todd is not only about finding a needle in a haystack, it’s finding a unicorn next to that needle in a haystack. It’s very, very rare. So I’m not going to pretend for one minute that online dating was easy as a person with a physical disability in actuality, it’s probably one of the most emotionally traumatic periods of my life because you’re constantly getting rejected based on a thing that you can’t control.

But if I was to provide one piece of advice, it’s and it’s corny, but it’s just persistence and people with disabilities, regardless of what disability they have, if you don’t need to teach them one thing, it’s definitely persistent stuff. One thing that we’ve always got sorted.

LISA: Yeah. Stubbornness and persistence. I think my husband will agree with me that it’s one thing I’ve got. It got sorted.

TODD: It’s how we survive.

LISA: Yeah. And Marita would you- I know you’ve got lots of clients with disabilities Is there one bit of advice or several bits of advice that you’d offer to people with disabilities looking to do some online dating or get out into the dating scene?

MARITA: I think what Todd said is really important, the persistence and it’s something, you know, online dating is, you know, not really fun. I mean, it can be fun, but, you know, if you are looking for a life partner, it’s always pretty challenging. And, you know, finding the right person.

But persistence and then also discernment. Is this person actually, you know, the person that I would like to be with? Because I like what you were saying before Todd where you’re saying there was somebody, but then they were not the perfect match. And then because you showed that discernment, you actually found your beautiful unicorn. I love how you describe that.

TODD: And it’s also important for to me to say that despite my disability, I am as cisgender white male. So if you’re, if you’re queer or transgendered or you know, have a different race, so not caucasian. That presents its own set of challenges as well. So yes, I’ve got a big challenge. But even in amongst that disability spectrum, I’m probably the most traditional representation of somebody with a physical disability.

LISA: Yeah. And when you are younger in your, in your teenage years, did you feel differently about having a disability or-

TODD: It’s only when I turned about that I actually came to terms with the fact that I completely despise my disability in all its forms because I was very fortunate to have two very strong willed, articulate, educated parents who always fought for me, believed in me as an individual and from them and from my own internalised ablism I sort of thought, well, at least I’m in a wheelchair and I can articulate my wants and needs and I’m not as bad off in somebody in a hospital bed that can only move their neck.

So in the scheme of things, I’m all right. But it wasn’t until actually having had a nervous breakdown in my late twenties that I actually had to deal with the fact that my disability is really shitty and it really pisses me off. So that was a challenge in the dating process as well, because I was undergoing that sort of ideological transformation, I had to present myself online to women that I found attractive and interesting, and I didn’t have that confidence within myself at that time. So that was an extra barrier to overcome.

LISA: Yeah, I think- I think it’s okay to be honest with that stuff that, you know, disabilities aren’t all…for all of us. Everyone’s got a different experience, but it’s okay to just have shitty days with disability and it’s not all sunshine and roses all the time.

LISA: for everybody

TODD: You would find this too Lisa that as a disabled person, we’re always taught to accommodate an able society, but nobody here who is able bodied is taught how to accommodate people with disability. We always have to go the extra mile. We always have to be half as disabled and twice as good. And there are different ways you can reckon with that.

But it’s an emotional journey and I mean, I obviously know a lot of people with disabilities of all kinds, but the one thing that we all have in common, even if we don’t recognize it yet, is we all struggle psychologically with reckoning with our disability and how we present that to the world.

LISA: Definitely, for sure. As much as we love, I’d love to spend all day talk about sex. There’s just a another really important element we need to chat about, which is things like STI’s which are, you know, not as sexy but still need to be talked about.

MARITA: And this is one of the things we see in the clinical work. And I personally see as well where people with a disability because they don’t have, you know, that experience and don’t go out as often. This is completely neglected to talk about STD’s.

And so for my clients, but in general, I’m really passionate about education about- around this topic for people with a disability. And it’s basically if people are interested, the sex-positive website has actually a tag where there is a really good explanation of what would be recommended. What tests to do, but also how to start that conversation. And also for people with a disability not to be pressured into anything they don’t want to.

LISA: Yeah

MARITA: So really be very discerning what you want to speak up and really have that conversation with a partner. And if they don’t want to have that conversation, just don’t even go there because it’s, you know, I often say to my clients, It’s just not something I would like them to have.

LISA: Gosh no. Absolutely. And yeah, knowing your rights, your sexual rights and I think it’s really important that we have have these conversations and it’s not going to be on the six p.m. headlines anytime soon but it’s conversations that that need to be had.

TODD: Yeah well the only thing that gets on that p.m. headlines or the Four Corners episodes are when something horrendous happens to us, you never see positive stories unless they’re a Paralympian about disability. Disability and having positive relationships in educating other people with disabilities. Because of course. Because we have those diminished rights, the media is reluctant to tell our stories and politically because people with disabilities don’t know what their rights are, and it’s in the best interests of the powerful to deny us our rights, because we’re powerful lobby group and we want to be. We don’t have access to our rights unless we ask them. And that’s the overall message of the Royal Commission, which is why the culture in Australia around disability needs to change.

LISA: That’s right. And Marita when you’re working with your clients and, you know, teaching them to learn their rights or just learn their boundaries I suppose in terms of sexual health and safety, what are some of those things that you teach them or tell them?

MARITA: So basically everything about consent is really important. You know to really know their yes and no, because a person with a disability, they know their body best and they know best what’s good for them. And so not to be pressured into anything they don’t want also then usual prevention, the tests they can do, finding out what, actually Todd said before, how to- which areas of their bodies feel, you know, pleasurable and also open communication with their partners.

And, you know, it’s just what we also see is just trying it out. And yeah, it’s basically it’s a holistic approach, because when I work with them, I also look at bladder management, bowel management, wound care and, you know, all that stuff that needs to be considered to have safe sex. So, you know, also being safe, hearing that sexual expression.

LISA: Yeah, that’s such an important service and just reminding the listeners again that is all NDIS, the sort of thing that is. And for a lot of people that’s, that’s just as important as other things that are NDIS covered as well.

And Todd, do you have any sort of tips for the listeners or or anything like that around, around consent and knowing their body from a sexual health perspective?

TODD: If you’re a parent that has a child with disability don’t shy away from the conversations that you would have with the child without a disability. Don’t forget, even if they communicate differently or have a cognitive deficit we all need to know what makes us safe.

What being uncomfortable feels like. When to know, when to trust our gut, when to know that we get excited. What it would feel like when we connect with that romantic partner. What give people hope about- I know a person with a disability who has an able bodied partner or I know a person with a disability is in a relationship with another person with a disability.

And I know a person with a disability who has a child because the thing that we forget as disability service providers is that people with disabilities don’t know what they don’t know and the way to share these stories is to teach them that you can be what you can see. But if you teach that, you have to open up people’s eyes.

LISA: That’s exactly right. And that’s what this podcast is trying to do, I suppose. Is to share those sorts of stories. And that’s that’s what we did I suppose touch on, touch on some stories, which wasn’t necessarily so, so great. And like I said before, the stories about consent and safety, you wanted sexier sex, but we did need to talk about it because it is important and something we did need to share because there are a lot of taboos across society, and I suppose a question for you both is… what you would like to see change? And that’s a that’s a big question.

And there’s there’s a lot of, you know from government policy we could put a lot of legislation in place to change it in pop culture, to all sorts of things. But if you could wave a magic wand so to speak. Open book, what would you like to see change if you could do anything tomorrow? What do you think would change the conversations around sex and disability to make it less taboo and less of a stigmatised thing that people are so ‘Eek. I don’t want to talk about it’.

MARITA: Well, being more exposed, you know, having more exposure to it, normalise it, have it- have that conversation at schools, you know, start really early. I can only talk about my experience from where I’m coming from because that, you know, discussion starts very early in life.

Obviously, child appropriate, age appropriate as well. But then, you know, we- I haven’t encountered any taboos around disability because that’s so normal that we say, yeah, people with a disability have sex too. So, you know, it’s it’s just, yeah, normalise it, have an open conversation.

And Todd was saying before what I really liked, really, you know, name the body parts, say vagina, say vulva, say penis and really, you know, have an open discussion. Don’t taboo, don’t have it as a taboo because it won’t help anybody. It’s just, you know, in an ideal world, we should talk about it and we don’t feel awkward about it.

It’s just a normal part of human being like eating. We talk about food like just normal or having a coffee, basically having a conversation like that. We don’t have to, you know, go in the nitty gritty stuff. But, you know, just having an open conversation about that, I think that would help a lot.

TODD: The Royal Commission report has come out recently and the thing that strikes me is that it’s twelve volume five and a half thousand page report that documents how we’ve been denied our basic rights in Australia.

And if I was to summarise the Royal Commission in three words, it’s basically dismantling the illusion of inclusion in Australia. So we’re not only talking about sexual or intimate rights or reproductive rights or any of the topics that we discussed today.

The reality is, up to this point, the government have failed to take our rights seriously and although we are a powerful voice and we’re the voice that started the NDIS. We’re the voice that got rid of the independent assessments. The fact that we have to live not as a second class citizen, not as a third class citizen, we are really a fourth class citizen as a group. We are a fourth class demographic and until society transitions away from the medical model that says our disability is the issue that must be dealt with.

Rather than looking inward and saying it’s actually society’s attitude about how they perceive our disability. In other words, it’s not our fault that we’re different. It’s your fault for perceiving us differently. So I could say that on a variety of topics, but specifically in regard to sexual health, reproductive rights, I mentioned the United Nations Convention on the Rights of People with Disability. That’s only years old.

So prior to when I turned, if I had a baby, my child can- my child could be taken away, no questions asked. I couldn’t be rescued in a time of disaster. I didn’t have political, legal or just rights. I got excluded from cultural and public activities.

So it’s not only sexual health, it’s about a whole shift in mindset to say, yes we are people with disabilities. And just because we’re in wheelchairs, or have cognitive difficulties, or are blind, or are deaf, or whatever disability that we have, it all comes back to that need for human connection.

Which is why I’m so passionate about this topic, because society looks at me and says, “We don’t want to look at you, live over there.” So I’m the one who says bring me to the table and that gets bloody exhausting. I’m sure you’re all the same way.

LISA: I’m ****ing exhausted.

TODD: So bring us to the table. Have the conversation. I’m not the problem. You are.

LISA: Yep. Incredibly well said Todd. Incredibly well said, both of you. So I’ve got one question for you before we finish today. And given the title of the podcast, ‘That Was Unexpected’. Todd I’ll start with you. What in your life, given everything that happened, is completely unexpected?

TODD: Given the nature of the topic, I can’t believe that people without disabilities believe that people with disabilities don’t want to have sex.

LISA: Neither can I!

TODD: We’re just horny as you are.

LISA: Love it! And Marita, I’ll ask you the same question. Given your experience in your professional background, working in the industries you do, what in your life is completely unexpected?

MARITA: Doing the job that I’m doing now. I would have never, ever, ever, ever. If you had asked me five years ago, I would have never thought I would do that work. And it’s very rewarding and I love to do this work. So yeah, people with the disability have sex and they like it. Yes.

LISA: So they go guys in answer to your question, in case you’re wondering, people with disabilities can and do have sex. You heard it here first!

Thank you both very much for being here and talking to us about sex, sexual health, all that fun stuff, and sharing your experiences with us, of course, and being vulnerable because some of those stories, Todd especially it probably wasn’t a whole lot of fun to go there.

TODD: I’m used to telling those stories. It’s an obligation that I have. I have the ability to tell stories, so it’s my obligation to pass them on. So I’m happy to do that.

LISA: Just compartmentalise and share. I know the feeling.

TODD: I’m always happy to give back to Youngcare because they’ve given me so much. If it wasn’t for Youngcare I wouldn’t have met my wife and it wouldn’t be having this conversation. So yeah, that’s what Youngcare has given us as a couple.

MARITA: That’s amazing.

LISA: That’s really cool.

LISA: Thanks for listening to ‘That Was Unexpected’. If you liked what you heard, and you want to hear more, then hit subscribe wherever you get your fix.

Have any questions or topics that you’d love for us to tackle? Great! Email [email protected] We can’t wait to hear from you!

Check it out show notes for transcripts, video recordings, and find out more about our guests plus the useful resources they share. You can reach us on Facebook, Instagram, X, and LinkedIn at @YoungcareOz

Let’s not forget an inclusive community is everyone’s business, so let’s keep working together to break down barriers and smash some stereotypes!

Episode 4: Inclusion in the Performing Arts

While 20% of the Australian population have disabilities, our film, screens, catwalks, and stages significantly lack adequate representation. In today’s episode, we hear from actress and model, Maya Dove, and Victoria Wilson – Division Lead for Zebedee Talent, the world’s leading inclusive talent agency.

Lisa and our guests unpack the consequences of this underrepresentation for people with disabilities and discuss how brands can adopt an inclusive approach. If you’re a person with disabilities eager to see your name in lights, Maya and Vic have some great advice for you!

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Narrator:

Hi, and welcome to episode four of. That was unexpected. In today’s episode, Lisa and our guests delve deep into representation in the performing arts. Lisa was joined in the studio by actress and model Maya Dove, best known for her role in Tae Tae in the Land of Yaaas. And Victoria Wilson Division lead for Zebedee Talent, the world’s leading inclusive talent agency. Enjoy.

Lisa:

Are you sick of the same old disability stereotypes? We were too, so we did something about it. Welcome to. That was unexpected. The Disability Lifestyle podcast for everyone brought to you by Youngcare and hosted by me, Lisa Cox. Join our amazing guests as we delve into topics that don’t often hit the headlines. So let’s do this. Prepare for the unexpected.

Lisa:

If you are low vision like me or have other accessibility requirements, check out our shownotes. Before we get started, we’d like to acknowledge the traditional owners of land on which we record. We pay our respects to the elders past, present and emerging.

Maya and Vic, it’s great to have you here today, so I could talk about representation all day, but I’m really excited that you are here to talk about it with me so, could you start by introducing yourselves and tell me about what you do.

Maya:

Hi, my name is Maya Dove I am an actress model and caseworker based in Melbourne and I am proud dog Mum of a greyhound Maggie-June.

Lisa

Excellent. Yes, Dog Mum here as well.

Maya

All three of us are.

Victoria

Yeah, I’m Vic. I’m from Zebedee Talent. I’m the team lead here in Australia looking after all of wonderful Australian talent. But I also look after our talent overseas in the U.S. as well, and North America. So, yeah, that’s me.

Lisa

Excellent. So, Maya you and I first got into contact prior to you being in Tae Tae in the Land of Yaaas. Gosh, that’s a mouthful. I’m just going to call it Tae Tae.

For the listeners who haven’t heard about Tae Tae. Could you tell us a bit about it?

Maya

Yes, Tae Tae is a theatre show written by and produced by Shake and Stir theatre company that’s based here in Brisbane. It is about a young woman who is back in hospital waiting another spinal surgery and she’s feeling a bit unsure of what her future holds and what life has in store for her, because she’s experienced quite a significant amount of trauma and her sister comes to stay the night with her in hospital to cheer her up and her sister quickly sees that she’s not okay and she makes this kind of wish to the heavens or something like that about hoping that Tae can find out how good things can be. And then a magical fairy godmother who’s played by Maxie Shields, from RuPaul’s Drag Race, comes and takes them to the land of Yas, where they go through her past, her present, and they see their future. And by the end of it she feels happy and excited for what her future has in store.

Lisa

I love that because it rewrites that entire narrative that once you acquire a disability, your life, it’s going to be rubbish. And it really put a new spin on that and we don’t see enough of that in pop culture. I was cheering the whole way.

Maya

I’m so glad. I just really loved the fact that the audience got to see that Tae was just a young woman and all of the issues that she had were heightened by the fact that she had a disability. But throughout the show you just see Tae for who she is and the family that love her, which I think is just amazing.

Lisa

Yeah, right, exactly. So you mentioned that you’re an actor, and how did you get into that?

Maya

Well, I had just split up with my high school boyfriend and I was living out of home for the first time. And because when you are a young, disabled person, it’s really hard to find employment while you’re studying.

I was looking for ways to work and I really liked performing as a kid and I thought maybe this is something that I could do. So I just reached around to a few agencies based in Melbourne and then a year later after being signed, with a local agency, I reached out to Zebedee Talent and they weren’t in Australia yet.

But then when they were, Vic reached out to me and said, Would you like to come onboard? And then the rest is history.

Lisa

So exciting. So you and I both had different experiences of childhood because I didn’t grow up with the disability. And yeah, as a little blond kid, I saw myself everywhere and it was it was easy.

But as a child with a disability, what was it like growing up, not seeing yourself represented?

Maya

It was really hard. There was no pathways for disabled kids to get into the arts. I was a dramatic kid and I was a performer. A lot of the times it was just me singing about how much I loved my dog, but there was just no outlets.

My parents looked, but there was nothing really inclusive. Certainly nothing looked like Zebedee talent that do book disabled kids. So it’s just really nothing for me to build upon. It wasn’t until I became an adult the first time I think I saw someone like me on just on television was when I was in London and it was just a wheelchair racer on an ad for UK television.

And I thought that was just amazing because it was the first time I’d been authentically shown, and that’s five years ago. So yeah, yeah.

Lisa

Now let’s hope it’s changed a lot in five years, but I certainly can’t speak to experiences. But you know, 18 years ago, even when I had mine, there was that was not that you could be a Paralympian.

Maya

Yeah. Or you could be a patient in a hospital bed and that was, that was kind of not to say it’s perfect now, but there’s definitely it’s certainly come a long way. Well, even just the kids, because I have a spinal cord injury, a lot of the stories were just about adults that had been in a traumatic accident.

And I wasn’t in a traumatic accident. I’ve had my spinal cord injury since birth, but that kind of narrative was never shared. It was never shared what it was like to be a young kid in Australia growing up disabled. So I think that it’s really great that now those stories are finally being shared and if it was shared, it was always traumatic and sad and I’m not trying to minimize it.

You know, there would have been bad days. But yeah, the impact that it has now to also show families are amazing. I always think that disability impacts them just as much as a disabled person, but a lot of the time it’s the burden back in like back in those days.

Lisa

Yeah, but we’re not a burden.

So, Vic, we’re so excited that Zebedee is here!

I remember when I heard about them being over in the UK. I, like many other people, was like when are you coming to Australia? We need some talent here because I, as you know, I work with advertising agencies and like, okay, great, we want to, we want to represent people with disabilities, but where’s the talent? Where do we go for that?

So at least now when I’m speaking to businesses and agencies I can say and here is Zebedee. Yeah. So tell me about how you got started?

Vic

So yeah Zebedee was set up in 2017 by my sister in law Zoe and Laura, who obviously wanted to increase the representation of disabled talent, they set up in the UK.

And then I guess where I came in was 2019. Yeah, funny story. I’m actually Laura’s sister in-law and I, you know, I was really impressed, you know, with what they were doing in the UK. Yeah, I’m delighted for all the changes they were making. So I really wanted to come on board. So in 2019 I came on board to develop the US division and me being here based in Australia, a couple of years later or a year later, it just made sense that we launched over here.

I had people like Maya sitting in my inbox for like a year in a little folder of people, you know, to reach out to in Australia for when we did launch there. Yeah, it just made sense. There was that lack of representation here in Australia and it was, it was needed and we wanted to help create that pathway for talent.

So yeah, here we are, we’re thriving now in Australia. We’re doing really, really well and super proud of all of our talent and how far we’ve come.

Lisa

Yeah, you should be. It’s really, really wonderful. 20% of the population with a disability, but in advertising anyway, 1% and that’s, that’s not just bad for all of us with disabilities but also from a social perspective.

But I speak to businesses about it – it’s really shitty business, like you’re losing money. And that’s, I suppose, another way to look at it. Not the only reason you should do inclusive advertising and those sorts of things, but as Maya said, not, not seeing yourself on screen, not seeing yourself represented. It kind of sucks to put one way around it.

But what sort of brands see working with the moment?

Vic

We working with a bit of everything. To be honest, we put our talent forward for absolutely anything and everything. We want to give them as much opportunity as possible, and we do recommend that they take on board all the opportunities that come their way. You never know what doors that might open and who you’re going to impact, I suppose.

But yeah, we’re working with fashion brands, beauty tech brands, like you name it, a bit of everything, we do it. We’re working with on film sets, TV commercials, some TV series as well, some really exciting things coming out this year, things that have come out of theatre as well, delving into and yeah, the social side of things.

We help our talent build our social influencing platforms and yeah, reach out to brands that way as well. So yeah, bit of everything

Lisa

okay and what sort of disabilities do all of your talent have?

Vic

Any kind of disability so visible and invisible disabilities, we have talent with visible differences as well, and we also work with trans and non-binary communities as well.

So basically all those kind of communities that were generally underrepresented or left out of the media, Yeah, we want everyone to kind of come on board and yeah, get, get everyone out there and seen.

Lisa

And has there been any…maybe not push back. But what sort of responses are you getting from brands with that? Because I want to talk about hesitation about including disability for so many reasons that are just rubbish.

But from your perspective, what sort of hesitation are you seeing from brands and businesses who don’t really necessarily want to find excuses not to do it?

Vic

I guess it’s just that fear factor and fear of getting it wrong or fear of using the wrong languages or that fear of tokenism as well. But I can just say just, just do it basically like, yeah, just go for it.

Like we’re here. We’ve got a great talent pool. Reach out to us. You know, reach out and ask for our packages. We’re also here for guidance as well. We’ve got awesome people on board like yourself, Lisa, who can offer advice and training and yeah, it is being done and it can be done and it can be done really successfully.

Every shoot that I’ve worked on or booked our talent on has been super successful. We’ve had great feedback from our talent and also our clients as well. And yeah, yeah, everyone’s been super successful and proud too. Yeah, it definitely can be done. I’d recommend. Yeah, just get out there, do it. Reach out to the right people. Yeah, yeah, definitely can be done.

Lisa

I think the, the fear of getting it wrong is, is something I hear a lot of and that’s, that’s understandable because often with advertising or any, any sort of production there’s a lot of money involved so you can’t just have a crack and yeah, might lose millions. So it’s not quite that simple, but fear of getting it wrong is not excuse for doing nothing, or at least asking people in the community how can we best go about this?

So it might not be perfect, but it’s damn damn… So I don’t know if I can sway there. Yeah, but it’s close to it. So.

So Maya tell us a bit more about your first gig.

Maya

My first gig was for Instagram. The company, Yeah. They were filming some short videos and stills in Melbourne. I think my face was on like the Zodiac filter at one point.

I only found out through a friend, but I remember being on the job and texting my mum after I was like, already to start shooting. I was like, I’ll do this the rest of my life. This is incredible. And my mum was like, I’d have a good day, but did not expect that. I was like, “Do you know the photographer? He shot Kendall Jenner last week!” and I was just, yeah, obsessed.

And after that, I’ve just been passionate about doing more.

Lisa

And I hope you do do more because we definitely want to see greater representation out there. And the fact is you love it so much, and the listeners can probably hear it. But the energy coming from you about absolutely loving, loving what you do.

So, Vic, I think I asked you this before, but what is … I suppose I’ll call them excuses. Call them what they are. You mentioned the fear factor, but are there any other more specific reasons?

Vic

Like you mentioned before, like that fear of expense as well? Maybe. But yeah.

And the fear, the fear of using the wrong language for being, you know, getting it wrong, being called out as tokenistic, which you don’t need to be if you want to be inclusive, just be inclusive and continue to be inclusive. As I mentioned as well. It does make sense for people to book disabled talent. You know, and when they are inclusive, it has been proven by research that it’s beneficial to their company and their own moneymaking.

I suppose, you know, it’s the right and ethical thing to do as well. It’s definitely going to impact the talent and the wider community. Yeah, Yeah. It, yeah, it just can be done and do it. Like I feel like there is no excuses and I think they do have excuses. Then as I said before, there is people to reach out, to get some advice, get some training and also look into your own business structure as well.

Like, you know, recruit internally people with disabilities as well and have a look at that internal structure as well as obviously in front of the camera. But yeah, just wholistically I suppose, you know?

Lisa

100% representations about so much more than just putting one person in front of the camera and think – great job, done. Move on for the year. But it’s yeah like you said recruitment and behind the camera and so so much more.

Vic

Yeah. So I mean we’ve got obviously amazing talent and we’ve got super talent on our books, but we also represent some people like yourself who assist with training needs for businesses and we’re always available to reach out to for some help with that and how to go about their campaigns and how to do them properly. And we’ve got some awesome people behind the camera as well who want to get involved.

Lisa

So yeah, excellent. And what advice would you give to anyone who’s wanting to enter the industry? I’ll ask this question to both of you because you’ve got such different takes on it. But people who want to want to enter the industry with a disability, who are able to do what Maya is doing, how can they go about that?

Vic

Yeah, I’m I guess do a bit of research into the industry, reach out to people who are maybe in it already and see how they feel about it and how they going around it all and stuff go organize a couple of shoots, just make sure you feel confident and comfortable in front of the camera as well. And then it’s for you.

And just be responsive and, you know, want to invest in yourself and yeah, obviously take it further and but yeah, like I said, we’re always open to applications as well. We’re still growing in Australia and we want to grow the business, we need more talent. And so definitely like reach out to us, ask us questions, pop in an application.

Lisa

Yeah. Okay. What advice would you have for people to disability wanting to get into any sort of acting like the sort of work you do?

Maya

I think just do it, but make sure that you have a really strong sense of confidence in your skill because there will be jobs and you will be on jobs with people that probably haven’t worked with a disabled person before.

So I think just be confident in the fact that you can do it and that you’re skilled so that you’re allowing yourself to be showing up and being seen.

Lisa

Yeah. And we need more of that, more, more people with disabilities being seen, okay, Maya, I’d love to talk about the script for a moment because as I said, I was in the audience cheering the entire time.

Yeah. And for people who want to know the scripting of the show is it’s kind of special how that was done, but it included so many just really, really specific details and nuances that saw me laughing out loud. And a few other people in the audience laugh out loud. Those with disabilities and everyone around us was like, Honestly laughing.

And it’s because we got the joke and we got why that was funny. Or even though the rest of the audience thought “that is so not funny you can’t laugh.” And we were just in hysterics. Yeah. So can you tell us a bit more about the scripting?

Maya

Yeah. So the script was written by Nellie Lee. Which was based on her sister and her family.

So I think the reason it was so nuanced is because it was about her life and Nellie’s growing up knowing her sister has a disability. Yeah. So those experiences, you can’t think that out of your head. That’s only from someone that’s experienced firsthand. But they also were really mindful of the fact that it was an inclusive show and they wanted to make it really have a strong sense of disability.

When I said they had Mattie Little, who’s in from Brisbane and she was the disability consultant on the script progression, and then they also brought me up from Melbourne to meet the cast and everything like that and also give my input on the script. So it was very authentic and real and so the audience could see the vulnerability of the show.

Lisa

Yeah, it was definitely authentic and, and I see some that have tried to include disability and all credit to them for giving it a crack, maybe like, cringe cringe

Maya

And do you have a favorite scene?

Lisa

I probably for all the wrong reasons. I, I just loved love the one one that in the loungeroom in the mother is yeah running around going well make it all perfect for you and clean up And everything was just like, wow.

I could just relate to it I suppose.

Maya

But, Helen Cassidy, who played my mum, was a phenomenal actress. She was incredible. She really took me under her wing because it was my first time doing a professional show. Yeah. And they really made me feel comfortable, which is fantastic.

Lisa

The fairy godmother was hilarious.

Maya

Yeah. Maxie. Maxie has been doing it for 20 years, and she really looked out for me too. They all did. They all really looked out for me, which I think was fantastic because I am from Melbourne, So I lived here for two and a half months and work on it and do the show.

So I think the reason that I personally did such a good job at the in the role was because they just really made a comfortable environment.

Lisa

Yeah, I wouldn’t have known it was your first show.

Maya

Well, it felt like it at the start.

Lisa

You did a really good job.

Maya

Thank you.

Lisa

What would you like to see in the future in terms as representation on stage? On screen? I suppose it’s a question for both of you. Where would you like to see the industry going with regard to representation?

Maya

I think just more authentic stories like Tae Tae being shown out there. But I also think I would love for disabled actors to be just cast in roles that aren’t necessarily disability centred because disabled people, they’re not. The disability is a big part of who you are and a big part of who I am. But I’m not just a person with disability. I am a case worker, I’m a model, I’m a dog mum, I’m a sister, I’m a granddaughter. So there’s no reason why disabled people can’t play those kind of roles.

Lisa

Really, really well said. There’s so much more to us then our NDIS packages and wheelchairs and those sorts of things. And I think Tae Tae reflected that really, really well. And Vic, what would you like to say in terms of representation into the future?

Vic

Yeah, I think I’d just like to kind of echo what Maya said and yeah, just the casting. I should just be kind of incidental. You don’t need to make a role for a disabled person or yeah, like consider them for any particular role that you’ve got on. We submit our talent for absolutely any roles and we put them out there. And again, you’re not specific to disabled roles.

So I think yeah, just that incidental casting or yeah like yeah I guess yeah, that’s really key. I think the incidental inclusion. Yes. Yeah. Just consider the talent, you know, for who they are and they can play any role basically. Yeah. Yeah. And then yeah, if you need to ask questions and we, I mean we’re quite responsive, we work with our clients and talent together to ensure that everything on set is, you know, accessible if that’s needed or any accessible needs.

Basically, we have access writers that we have our talent complete and we forward them to our clients prior to any shoot taking place. So everybody’s aware of any needs and requirements on set and, and that everything runs smoothly and it does! So yeah it’s not always that specific disability role that is cast. We like to see our talent being cast in all roles across the board.

Lisa

So Maya you’re only one actress I suppose. And by that I mean there are a zillion people out there who have a disability and are also actors or actresses. But for anyone considering hiring disabled talent, what are your, I suppose, requirements on set?

Maya

I mean, I’m pretty I’m pretty chill. I backpacked through Europe so I can make anything work.

But you know I just make sure that there’s a disabled bathroom and it’s step free. That’s the main things.

Lisa

You backpacked through Europe? Tell me more about that.

Maya

Yeah. When I was 20, I went for seven weeks through Europe by myself.

Lisa

No. That is incredible. So what parts?

Maya

I went to Switzerland, Germany, Paris and the UK.

Lisa

That is so cool.

Maya

Yeah. So I think after doing that, there’s not really. Not much I can’t do. It was quite a very physical show and they were just worried that I was okay and because after doing that there’s really not much that I don’t do. That’s one of the hardest things I’ve ever done.

Lisa

So the physicality of Tae Tae was just really a breeze, I bet. It is a very, very physical show. You nailed it.

Maya

Thank you. I think I calculated that I did, like…there were five transfers per show and I did 25 shows. Think I did like 105 transfers for the whole season.

And that’s not including rehearsal. So yeah, I was very fit for the time I got back to Melbourne. Yeah, I have Guns of Steel, but I didn’t have any physio, so my, my hips definitely felt it. But yeah, yeah, it was incredible.

Lisa

So I want to know more about the script? I know it was written by, not written by sorry, but based on Tae’s life. But did any of it apart from a main character with the disability, any other specifics that you could really resonate with or that reflected your own personal experiences?

Maya

Yeah, I think just the whole entire show, it was really funny. When I went to the callback, they told me about the story because at first I thought I was just going in for a side little side role.

I didn’t think it was the lead.

Vic

Yeah I don’t know why. I feel like they didn’t really put that it was the main role. They kept that hush hush.

Maya

So I kind of went out there thinking, I’m just going to do this role. And it was kind of at a point where I wasn’t really sure. I wasn’t really confident in my future in the arts at that point. So I was kind of like, I’m going to do it and see what happens. Then I went up there and they told me about the story and I actually had the exact same surgery that Tae was waiting for. And so I had a spinal fusion when I was ten.

Yep. And I had three of them in four years and Tae was waiting for the second one. So just when I heard that, I was like, okay, this is a bit special because I mean, my spinal fusion was a big, big part of my life. It was probably one of the biggest things medically I’ve been through. So, I think just even that, I was just like, okay, well, I’ve got to I’ve got to give this everything because I mean, that experience as a kid, I can’t it’s kind of nice being now 24 and knowing that wasn’t for nothing.

But not even that, that’s something like a small part of it. But I think just the issues that were raised in this, the stories were told and to highlight disability awareness. I think just even the fact that my mum and my siblings could resonate, and I resonated just really shows that help across the board these experiences are because when you’re a disabled kid, it can feel very lonely and it just feels like you’re the only one.

So it’s kind of comforting for me to have tell that story and know that, okay, so let all that stuff that I kind of dealt with as a kid wasn’t I wasn’t the only one. It’s an across the board experience, which was very heartbreaking. It was heartbreaking when I was performing and I would see like a ten year old who had cerebral palsy in the front row.

And I’m telling the show and I’m like, That was probably the hardest bit that I’ve ever done. But then when you have like, you know, girls that are in high school and they are wheelchair users and they come up to me after the show and say, Thank you so much. I’ve never seen someone like me on stage. Yeah, that’s just I mean, I don’t care if I didn’t…

I mean, I do want another job, but like, for me, I remember in rehearsal someone saw the poster and I was looking down the street and I just got a glimpse of it when I was talking to Maxie, and it was this girl being pushed by her carer and she looked at the poster and I didn’t even meant to see that.

And I just remember texting my mum being like telling the story. And I said, if you know, if that experience, if that moment is all that I get from this shows and you know, that’s, that’s my driver, my job’s done.

Lisa

That’s awesome. I’ve got goosebumps. Now that’s, that’s really, really special.

When I acquired my disabilities, I wish that you had been able to talk to me and say, you know what? I’ve just backpacked around Europe or, I don’t know if you had yet, but I had done all these things because I only had this stereotype in my head that, yeah, life was over and it was it was going to be rubbish.

But to have met someone like you or see someone like you on a poster represented would have meant, would have meant so much.

Maya

Yeah, it’s, it’s quite funny like trying to tell people these things because I’m quite personal about things like that. Everyone gets so surprised of all the stuff that’s happened, but I mean, it’s just it’s just it’s the reason why I’m coming up to Brisbane for 24 hours.

My parents have always kind of they felt they didn’t have any kind of knowledge of disability. My mum was a nurse so she knew about it, but I don’t know any other family members. I have a physical disability so they kind of had the idea very early on that I was going to live a life that was a life of yes.

There was nothing they were going to stop me from doing if I was a three year old and I wanted to go in the McDonald’s playground, they would have my uncle come with me and carry me up and down and or if I wanted to backpacked through Europe, they would bite their tongue and say, Yeah, okay, how you want to do this?

How are you going to do it? And then call me every day. To make sure I hadn’t died. So I think there is, and it’s really a testament to my family and my siblings who, I mean. So if they came and enjoyed it, they’re very, they’re very critical.

Like you think I’m sassy you haven’t met my little sister, she’s the worst. I said, if they said that I did good, then I know that I did good. And I think even them coming up and watching Tae Tae, they loved it. The part where I was chasing Jonny, who played a school bully around the stage like that, brought back childhood trauma, you know?

They just really loved it because even siblings, it’s not really discussed the impact that having a disabled sibling has on the family dynamic. I mean, for me, I thought it was quite nice for them to see that, that their experiences of being shattered off to different relatives while I had surgery is not it’s not singular, it’s universal.

And defending a disabled sibling like they’ve defended me sometimes and all they’ve had to answer silly questions like your sister drops you to school, how does she do that? I think saying moments like that that we’re in, in Tae Tae sorry was special and that is exactly why we need the entire show to go around Australia I’m not ready to say goodbye to yet.

Yeah, more. Even the last show I was like, I feel like I’m doing the very first one. I am not ready, but yeah, my body was ready.

Vic

But it just reiterates how like much impact not only the talent but the wider community as well. Like you obviously had an amazing experience there and want it to be continued and it’s, you know, you hold it close to your heart.

Maya

Shak and Stir still never made me feel like either never not once even now, I was just one of the cast it was just great. Yeah. They definitely had to have lots of conversation on how to make the theatre accessible for me.

But I mean, that was never put on me, that was never discussed with me. It was never that stress was never something that I had to carry the burden of. Yeah, they just made it seem like it wasn’t a big deal, which is how it should be. It’s a big deal doing it. An inclusive show like Tae Tae. But the fact that I was there and I was performing, you just let it be a big deal. It should just be how it is. Yeah, you just get to be another actor or actress.

Lisa

Vic, from an international point of view, how do you find Australia’s faring compared to compared to other countries? Because I know in certain industries and things I’ve spoken about, Australia is maybe a decade time, but yeah, from the work that you do?

Vic

I think it’s definitely catching up.

From a Zebedee business point of view, the Australia side is accountable for about 15% of the business. So it’s definitely and that’s like worldwide, I mean we have talent throughout the whole UK, Europe and then throughout like the whole of Northern America as well. So I think yeah, we’re definitely doing really well over here at the moment.

It’s growing and we’re seeing that change and people are, yeah, reaching out to us directly. They want advice, they want to, you know, how to be inclusive. It’s about changing social attitudes. It doesn’t happen overnight and that’s years and years of shifting culture and seeing them out there so yeah that’s the best part.

I’m so excited to see our talent out and about. But going to the shops and I’ll stop and look.

Maya

I saw two Zebedee models in one day.

Vic

Yeah. And even just I think what I love about Zebedee is that it’s such a community.

Maya

At Melbourne Fashion Week, for example, I like to go because I just like to support all the other models.

I think everyone’s super supportive and even a few of the models came and watched the show and they were really proud, which I think is, I mean you don’t see that in other agencies. You don’t see people being genuinely happy for your success. Yeah. All the talent are generally happy for everyone.

Vic

Literally everyone’s cheering each other on. Everyone’s resharing.

Maya

When you do see someone killing it, it’s just, just, it’s amazing to see. It’s so nice.

Vic

Yeah. Yeah, for sure. That’s cool. And I think the more brands and businesses who do casting with disabled talent, they say it wasn’t as hard as we thought it was, it’s, it’s not nearly as complicated. It is awesome.

Lisa

So yes, representation shouldn’t just be something that happens around the Paralympics and I know statistically there’s a spike in representation around the Paralympics. And during that time everybody is calling you and contacting us. But disability is all year round because people with disabilities exist in the world all year round and need to be represented in the same way.

Vic

Exactly right. Yeah.

Lisa

Question for you both, since the podcast is called that was unexpected. We like to ask our guests what about them or the circumstances with disability or with the industry, that is unexpected?

Vic

Maybe from a work perspective, from people knowing me, from Zebedee and the talent and clients I work with is yeah, that I have spent a lot of time traveling Australia. I moved here 14 years ago from the UK and yes, I spent about nine years of that working in aviation, flying in the skies and working with a variety of people. Emergency procedures Instructor as well. Also running around with firefighting equipment, medical equipment on board an airplane and teaching that to, yeah, flight crew members. For a good period of time. It’s exciting.

Lisa

What about you Maya?

Maya

I thought something unexpected about me is I grew up in the country, so I live in the inner city suburbs of Melbourne, but I grew up in a small town called, Kinglake, which is in the mountains of Melbourne, and I grew up riding quad bikes and going horse riding and a yeah, so you probably wouldn’t look at it from my Instagram because I like to go out a lot.

But like my parents now, they live on nine acres, so you’d probably see me go there quite a bit and be there with my dogs and they’ve got four chickens and I’m trying to convince them to get a horse, but I’m the only one of my family who like horses, so I don’t think I’m going to win.

Lisa

So if brands, businesses, individual want to get in touch with you and make their content inclusive, which they should, how can they do that?

Vic

I recommend giving our website a visit initially. So w w w zebedee talent dot com. You’ll find our contact info there. But if you want to reach out to me directly it’s Vic at Zebedee talent dot com. Check out our talent on our website. Check out the work that we do and why we do it and email us for some more information on how to make your campaigns accessible.

And if you need advice, we’ve got some amazing consultants and creatives on the team as well. But yeah, reach out to us, ask about our packages and we can take it from there. We’ll support you throughout the whole process and guide you.

Lisa

That’s brilliant. And Maya? How can people get in touch with you?

Maya

You can look me upon at Maya Dove or reach out to Zebedee Talent If you want to book me for anything further.

Lisa

I want to see your face everywhere.

Maya

Yes, I would like that too, I want to be on billboards in a lot of movies and a lot of TV shows and more theatre.

Lisa

Yeah, it’s fantastic. Thank you both so much for being here and talking about one of my favourite topics, representation.

Vic

Thanks for inviting me and having us.

Lisa

Thanks for listening to that was unexpected. If you liked what you heard, and want to hear more, then hit subscribe wherever you get your fix. Have any questions or topics that you’d love for us to tackle? Great email podcast at young care dot com dot au, we can’t wait to hear from you. Check it out our show notes for transcripts, video recordings and to find out more about our guests, plus the useful resources they share.

You can reach us on Facebook, Instagram and LinkedIn at Youngcare Oz. Let’s not forget, an inclusive community is everyone’s business, so let’s keep working together to break down barriers and smash some stereotypes.

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